Discussion Post

[muccamukk]

Before we post the updated rules, we thought we'd have a space for member discussion. There were some great comments in the wrap up post last year, and we wanted to talk about how some of those might be implemented this year, especially in regards to fan artists, and how to be more inclusive and welcoming to them.

Schedule for 2015 round is as follows:
10-20 August: Nomination Period
23 August to 2 September: Signups open
5 September: Assignments will be sent out by this date
17 October: Fanworks due
23 October: Archive goes live (or as soon as everyone has a gift)
30 October: Creators revealed

We've made an LJ feed so you can follow us there at thefemslashex

Here's what we're thinking of changing:
1. Nominations:
Poly: This year we are allowing the nomination of poly groupings, so long as all the characters qualify for the fest (thus f/f/f or f\f/f or f/f/f/f etc = fine; f/f/m or f\f/m = not in this fest, though you may list it as an option in your optional details/prompts.)

Crossovers: This year we are allowing crossovers. Please nominate them as under the fandom: Crossovers - Fandom, and list the characters with their fandom after the character name (Example: Pepper Potts (MCU)/Seven of Nine (Star Trek: Voyager). Thanks to rarepair for figuring out how to do this.

RPF: RPF characters must be over 18 at the time of nomination, and must be public figures in their own right (no girlfriends/kids/parents of public figures permitted).


2. Defaulting:
There won't be a penalty-free default date. Instead all defaulting will be penalty-free, but people who flat out don't submit by the due date, or who submit incomplete work, will not be allowed to participate next year.
ETA: We are still asking people who defaulted after the no-penalty date last year to sit this year out. You are welcome to treat, and may sign up again for the 2016 round, if you wish. /ETA


3. Anon period:
There will be a week-long anon period after the archive opens.


4. Treats for Pinch Hitters
We're thinking of having a post, probably put up around the due date, where pinch hitters could list some requests and prompts. Our current thought is that the pinch hitters could e-mail the mods, and the mods would put the prompts in a DW post, and interested parties could make them gifts. It would look something like the following, with up to four prompts:

Username:
Likes:
Squicks:
Prompt #1
Fandom:
Pairings:
Prompt:

5. AO3 Accounts:
Unfortunately, there's no way to get around needing an AO3 account for matching and thus sign ups. We will have invites this year, so people who don't have an accout yet can jump the queue, which has gotten rather long.

We'll also put up a post about how to use AO3 and hints for tagging. Well, at this time we're planning to link to posts, as there's no sense reinventing the wheel. I'm happy to take suggestions as to which posts people have found most useful. AO3 itself has a lot of basic tutorials, but other links are great too.

We are going to create a mod account, so that people without AO3 accounts can pinch hit and treat via that account. The work would be e-mailed to the mods, who could post it to AO3. Proper credit would of course be kept track of, and edited in after reveals.


6. Art Hosting:
I've been told that imgur is useful for anon art hosting. Is this true? I haven't used it.
I'm also happy to temporarily host art on my photobucket, at least until the anon period is over. Or, if there's going to be a lot of call for it, we could make a fest-specific photobucket.
We know there's conflict between wanting to sign your work to cut down on image theft, and having an anon period. Would watermarking your art with "Femslashex" or "do not reblog" some variation thereof, and after reveal swapping it out for a properly signed picture be an acceptable compromise? Any other ideas?


7. Art-friendly Prompts:
We're going to do a post about art-friendly prompts, and would like input from artists as to what those look like from your perspective.


8. Advertising:
Several people last year suggested a fan-art based banner that would advertise the fest and might be reblogged around and about tumblr. Since Team Mod is at below stick figure levels on art, would someone be willing to make something in that line? I don't want to seem grabby, but we also don't have anything to offer in exchange save adding prompts to the pinch hitters' prompt post. Does that seem fair?


9. Other Media:
We know we were talking about vids and podfic last year, but we don't want them to seem like an afterthought as art did last year, and we really don't have a handle on them, so we think we'll put off including them for the time being.


10. Free Space:
Did I forget something? All suggestions welcome. Anon comments are on, and you can always e-mail the mods at femslashexmod@gmail.com

Comments

[kerithwyn]

I just had to say poly WOO! Crossovers WOO! Looking forward to participating this year. :)

[muccamukk]

Figured that'd be popular. I'm glad someone else worked out the logistics.

That icon is the best icon (wasn't it drawn in response to the script author directing something like, "Don't make them too gay!"?)

[originally_dw]

Seconded! These are good changes.

[lieu]

Yeah, just dropping in to say I'm excited about poly ships, too :)

May I ask what's motivating the changes to the default structure? Just curious.

[muccamukk]

Last year we found that once the no-penalty date was past, everyone would hold off on defaulting until the very last minute because they didn't want to get banned, and it was stressful for them, and stressful for us because we ended up with a bunch of last-second defaults by people who thought they could make it and didn't. Plus basically no one defaulted on the no-penalty date. So it was pointless all around.

[(Anonymous)]

Very much yay to #1, 2, 4, & 7! Don't have much to say beyond that, but I'm definitely looking forward to this year's exchange!

[muccamukk]

Excellent. We hope you have a good time.

[saturnofthemoon]

What will no 2 mean for previous defaulters. I defaulted past the no penalty date but it was at least a week and a half before the due date.

[muccamukk]

I haven't actually talked about that with the other mod. We'll get back to you.

[muccamukk]

Having talked to my partner, we're still asking people who defaulted after the no-penalty date last year to sit this year out. You're welcome to treat, of course, and will be welcome back next year.

[callmewing]

Aw hell yeah, poly groups and crossovers! It's like christmas.

As for input...

6. imgur is pretty rad for anon art hosting, yeah. The image links have no ties to an account compared to, say, photobucket, and you can make some or all of your images private within your account. I like the idea of using a watermarked one for anon period and then swap out for the signed one later. Might have to send out an email or post to remind artists to make the swap - I don't know about other people, but my memory's not the best. A week goes by, and fffffft, things kind of just go poof.

7. Art-friendly prompts are a tough one. In theory, any prompt that works for text can also work for visual art - however, that depends on the particular artist and how much they like to fill in the blanks for someone. Personally, I'm flexible, as long as I'm familiar with the subject material. As long as the prompt is pretty solid, I'm good. Like say, "Jane and Lisa being sappy and affectionate in a park" is more solid than just "Jane and Lisa being cute together". There's nothing necessarily wrong with the latter, it's just so open-ended that you can get caught in a loop of wondering "oh god is this something my requester will like". Granted a Like List can shift that a bit, but I would still like something solid to go from.

[muccamukk]

Good to know that about imgur. We'll probably rec that as a primary thing, and then offer hosting myself for the bewildered. I'll post a reminder about swapping out art after reveals. That's a good point.

Thanks for your input on art. I always thought that a mix of general themes and more specific ideas was good.

[parcequelle]

I'm delighted to hear that crossovers are being allowed this year, hurrah! :D And though I am not much of a poly shipper, myself, hurrah for the inclusion of that, too!

[muccamukk]

They were pretty popular requests during wrap up last year, and we're happy to be able to add them.

[dirty_diana]

I feel like do not reblog is not super helpful? Partially because the people who don't care are still not going to care? Or they find things in a google image search, save them to their computers, and two years later have no idea who to credit. Watermarks are to me most useful for reuniting a piece found wherever with the person who deserves credit, and as such "femslashex" is not ideal either but at least provides a starting point. Maybe "for femslashex 2015"? the more clues the better.

As far as art prompts, I just recommend thinking about whether your epic prompts can be translated briefly and without words? In other words, the idea needs to reasonably fit into one or two frames. If you can't sort of imagine how it might be done, maybe there's a reason for that. But fanart has its own tropes that can be different from fic tropes, so mentioning some you enjoy is helpful also. Even just leaving a couple thoughts about your taste in art or a link to your fanart tag on tumblr or wherever, so your artist doesn't wonder whether you requested art by mistake.

[muccamukk]

That's really helpful. You could even put the whole URL to the AO3 page on the bottom corner or something, create the "story" first, grab the link and put it on the picture, and then embed the image. Though that might be too mess? I'll mention it as an option.

One thing I wonder about taste in art is how prescriptive it could be. Like if I say I don't like cartoon style, and I get matched with someone who mostly draws that, then my artist might feel pressured... if that makes sense?

[aphrodite_mine]

Nothing to add that is helpful, but do let me know if I can do anything to help.

[muccamukk]

Ta. We'll need all eyes on for fandom wack-a-mole during nominations, of course :D

[gwenfrankenstien]

Yay, crossovers & poly ships!

I use imgur for anon art hosting and I haven't had any problems with it. I like art prompts to be more open-ended than a lot of fic prompts I see; a list of visual tropes or a desired mood are helpful.

[muccamukk]

Wow. I thought I answered this yesterday, but what I actually did was leave the tab open, haha.

Good to know about imgur.

Would you mind writing an example of a prompt you'd leave, or one you'd find helpful. No worries if not, but it'd help me see what you mean.

[aiffe]

Wow, I'm really really excited for poly options, and crossovers look like a lot of fun too! I recently got into Steven Universe and I ship EVERYTHING POLY for it oh my god, there's actually a tag for it on tumblr (polygems) which is about a clump of 3-4 ladies in love.

Regarding the art stuff, I haven't really used imgur, photobucket I used in like, mid-00s LJ image hosting (such a dark time for fandom artists) and it's really not good because if you have the good luck to be popular, your image gets replaced by a "you're out of bandwidth" icon. I use something which might seem a little weird when it comes to image hosting--I just upload it as a private photo post to my tumblr, and right click image source for direct links, or use this code: <img src="yoururl"> where yoururl is...your URL. Keep the quotes, they're part of the code. That should work on AO3 with the default HTML input. I've tested it on months-old posts Google's had time to trawl, and reverse image search can't find it; google doesn't index private posts, so the user's identity is safe, and the URL itself is just a mash of letters and numbers with no clue as to the identity of the poster. There's no reason anyone would have to do it that way other than the many other image hosts out there, but I just find it easier to keep track of, and I know it's not floating around somewhere.

Regarding watermarks, I think we talked about it last year and as I said for myself personally it's not an issue--I don't watermark a lot of my art anyway and I don't shed tears over reposted art, it happens and I mostly just feel happy someone liked my art enough to save and repost it--but this is not the predominant view among artists. It's not going to affect my own participation at all, but I feel like it might be a real point of friction for others, which is a shame. People just save and repost art in a kind of casual way that never happens with fic. (I've been posting art online since 2003 and fic since 2004, and I've never had a reposted fic, but I've seen my art very casually reposted without credit, and no real malice or attempt to take credit, just a very innocent sort of "look at this cool thing I found" that treats the internet as an Anonymous Art-Generating Machine without real people actually working on art. I'm guilty of this too, I've saved art without credit, it's very easy to do.) With improved tools like GIS it's not like the source is likely to really be lost for anyone who cares to look, but ehhhh.... heck I've seen people use general websites like "Pixiv" or "Weheartit" (which is often already reposted art, sigh) as a source as if that was the name of the artist, I'd eyeroll if the artist of many talents "Femslashex 2015" got credited in reposts, lol. It'd be like if someone said, "I didn't write this fic, archiveofourown did," but it happens to artists all the time.

Were any artists specifically asking for an anon period? (I'm indifferent to it) Treating fic and art "the same" might actually be unfair to artists since different mediums have different needs? Or the anon period could be voluntary for artists--anon for artists who want it/don't care, not-anon for artists who feel the need to protect their work? IDK, it feels like it'd be meaningful to be willing to change part of the fic-culturey architecture to be welcoming to people who draw and their own unique culture. But well I'll let other artists voice objections if they have them, since it's not a problem for me. Sorry, I don't wanna be the problem child here!

For prompts I agree with others that basically if it's really long or really abstract (how would you draw, "A and B have a lot of student loan debt so they resort to dubious means of getting money" or something like that) that's good for fic but not for art, but stuff based on outfits, actions (kissing, fighting, cuddling, riding a horse together, etc) is more art-friendly. General themes/preferences (angst, fluff, h/c, explicit, PG-rated, AU, happy endings, etc) work all-around. Agreed that a fanart tag or a favorites folder on Deviantart (or a link to the requester's own drawings if they make them) could help people tailor for tastes if they like to do that.

Regarding a banner, I might be game, what sort of thing are you looking for? Original art, several pictures to represent many fandoms or just one, a manip of canon sources of stuff, combinations of drawings from several different artists?

[muccamukk]

Everyone seems to like the idea of poly, so we're giving it a go. Hopefully at least some SU fans will sign up.

That's good to know about private images on tumblr. I'll add that to the list of options, as well as how to do the coding (which I forget isn't universal knowledge). Having everything central is a pretty big advantage.

I don't think a fest-specific watermark would be quite the same as a site-specific one. You'd at least be able to find it more quickly if you knew which part of the fest to look at. There had been some discussion of putting the whole URL on, for one.

That's an interesting point about making the anon period optional for art, to accommodate the culture. Part of me feels like it wouldn't be "fair" since it would mean that some creators would be able to promote their work before others. However, it would be a way to draw traffic to art on an platform otherwise unfriendly to it. And, as you said last year, everyone pretending to be anon when art styles are often so distinctive and recognisable can seem a bit silly. I'll have to think about it and talk to the other mod.

On a logistical point, the archive is either all anon or all revealed, and there's no way to select for that. However, that wouldn't stop people from revealing themselves.

I'll do a posts for art and artists some time soon. For now, I think everyone in comments has given me a pretty good idea of what to include. Thank you.

Ideally, the banner would be original art of women that were generic enough to appeal to lots of fandoms (not clearly being Star Trek characters, or something), cute, and have the text of "Femslash Exchange" worked into it (two women sitting on the edge of the text? Just pretty text in the bottom? IDK). But honestly, anything that got the idea across would be great. I hesitate to make such a big ask, and would be happy for any banner that wouldn't frighten people off (which would be the effect of anything I made).

[muccamukk]

Having talked it over, I think we will make the anon period optional for artists, but will ask people not to crosspost the whole piece until after creator reveals.

[x_dark_siren_x]

I'm aware I'm probably going to sound like I'm complaining for the sake of it, considering I didn't want an anon period. But I didn't comment in time and I was out-voted, which is fair, so I was okay with it.

But I feel like maybe giving one set of participants an optional anon period, and making it mandatory for another, is possibly a little unfair? I admit I'm biased, obviously, but I could maybe see it causing issues with other participants, too. Or maybe not, and I'm just being a pain. :/

(I don't mean to jump on anyone, either. I'm kind of stupidly eager for everything to start back up again, and I keep checking this post. And I kinda went, "...oh" when I saw that, is all.)

ETA: Don't get me wrong, I understand why some people wanted an anon period even though I didn't, and I understand why artists would have issues with one. I just think that splitting it might not be the best idea. :S

[muccamukk]

I see what you mean. As someone who only does fic and doesn't especially care for anon periods, I totally get how it feels unbalanced.

However, given that the art community has such different concerns and problems (art theft being top among them, but AO3 itself being unfriendly to them as well), we've decided that it's unfair to impose a fic-based anon system on artists, especially if we're serious about including fan artists, and not having art be an afterthought.

Hopefully I'll be able to explain that clearly in the art post. I hope it's not too off putting to people.

[alias_sqbr]

Hi! I didn't end up signing up this year but still really appreciate the efforts you've gone to to include artists, and am hoping to do some treats.

Another suggestion: it would be really useful if you suggested on the treat letter post that people mention what kind of treats they're open to. Looking at the letters just now I saw a lot from people who are obviously expecting fic for their main gift, and I can't tell if they're the kind of person who prefers fic but still likes fanart and would enjoy a treat, or if they really wouldn't like getting fanart at all. I'm sure treat fic writers would feel the same way about someone who'd obviously requested art etc.

You could make a post asking people to edit their comments, since most treaters won't be looking at the post for a while, but it would also be cool if you just bore this in mind for next year.

I didn't check to see if someone else had suggested this, sorry if they have! And thanks for all your hard work!

[muccamukk]

That's a really good idea. I'm going to do a post assignments notes post tomorrow, and I'll be sure to mention it. I think we'll be opening all requests to viewing early, so you'll at least be able to see the main gift requests. (In case people are asking for both, and just prompting for fic, which was a thing last year.)